Customer @#%$&**^% Service Mafia END Mafia win

[Skoffin]

Vote Count
6 alive, 4 needed to lynch.

Pikanchion ----
dakky21 ------- Ragoo, strike, beast (3)
Ragian --------- Dakky, Tobi (2)
strike wolf ----
Beast ---
Tobikera ------

[Ragian]

Okay, Tobi. If you think I'm scum, do you then believe that I think Pika is town because a) I want town cred or b) because he's my scum partner? As far as I can understand you, the (only?) reason you think I'm scum is because I'm certain Pika is town. I think you're town, too. Am I wrong there?

[dakky21]

If Tobi was scum he would hammer me and end this game. Same with Pika. Unless there is just one scum out of 11 people but I find that highly unlikely.

[Tobikera]

Okay, Tobi. If you think I'm scum, do you then believe that I think Pika is town because a) I want town cred or b) because he's my scum partner? As far as I can understand you, the (only?) reason you think I'm scum is because I'm certain Pika is town. I think you're town, too. Am I wrong there?

No, Rage, you are not wrong with me, but then, I know that innately and you know that because you are scum.
I have not been involved in any lynchings in this game. Would that be true of a scumbag?
You and dakky are the two individuals who stick out in this game. dakky has been fluttering around like a chicken worried about a fox all game, and you have been demonstrative only at times. I'm still suspicious of pika, but not to the degree I am of you.
I could be wrong, of course.
If ZB or SW are scum, they have done a very good job of hiding it, although they were both in on the dgz lynch. And, have both voted for dakky. But, neither voted for Razor, and I do not believe a mafia-side player could avoid that. Right now, you are the common thread, with dakky.
As mentioned before, there is a certain amount of fatigue involved here.

[dakky21]

I already see Pika voting Ragian and day ending in 3-3 without lynch.
I will ask again... if Pika and Tobi are scum, why they didn't hammer me? It would end the game and they would know it.
Unless there are multiple fractions of scum or just one scum, but either way, lynch would help them.

Second thing... even if Pika and/or Tobi are scum, this is the way to gain town cred for the other scum member. Tobi votes Ragi in case the rest of the people switch votes and then Tobi is "town" while actually being scum...

[Ragian]

The obvious answer to that, dakky, is that if they were your scumbuddy, they won't hammer as long as there's a slight chance they can save you

@Tobi, beast wasn't in the game when Razor was lynched. Come on, man... Anyway, there's no way I can argue with you. You read the game VERY differently from me. You think that doing nothing (like you) is how to get information and being proactive (like me) is bad. You're playing a game of consequences rather than intentions. You'll get nowhere with that.

[Pikanchion]

To people voting for dakky21:

If dakky21 flips scum, who else is scum?

— If the answer is Tobikera: Justify not voting for either of these players day one.
— If the answer is me: Explain my actions for the first half of the game.
— If the answer is somebody else: Why?

[Tobikera]

@Tobi, beast wasn't in the game when Razor was lynched.

Does not matter that ZB was not in the game when Razor was lynched....the person for which he was substituted (Metsfanmas) did not vote for Razor.... the role would have been scum before and after the substitution.

@ dakky....there's nothing I have done in the whole game, except claim in D1, that makes me scummy, including not voting ever for you, assuming you are town. The more you clamor for me to be scummy, the more I think you are scum.

[Ragian]

It matters loads, mate. Mets was substituted because he wasn't playing. If he had been playing he could have voted for Razor. You cannot talk about Beast D1. He wasn't there.

@Pika, to be honest, I think it's Beast. He's been skating the waters not getting too much into anything. Moreover, his vote for Dakky bringing him to L-1 is a bold move for two reasons (i.e. something that they have talked through during the night because it was obvious that dakky would get heat D4, too): 1) It allows Beast to gain town cred when lynching scum (questions will be asked about those who are not on board lynching scum) and 2) it allows dakky to distance himself from Beast by crying that scum are on board the dakky train.

[dakky21]

Tobi & Pika... don't fall on Ragian cheap talk. I got nothing more to say, but I think Ragian will continue to be persuasive about me.

[Tobikera]

It matters loads, mate. Mets was substituted because he wasn't playing. If he had been playing he could have voted for Razor. You cannot talk about Beast D1. He wasn't there.
Good point, Rage. Hadn't considered or forgot that Mets was MIA.

@Pika, to be honest, I think it's Beast. He's been skating the waters not getting too much into anything. Moreover, his vote for Dakky bringing him to L-1 is a bold move for two reasons (i.e. something that they have talked through during the night because it was obvious that dakky would get heat D4, too): 1) It allows Beast to gain town cred when lynching scum (questions will be asked about those who are not on board lynching scum) and 2) it allows dakky to distance himself from Beast by crying that scum are on board the dakky train.

So, Rage, are you saying that ZB and dakky are the two scum, and that ZB and dakky have decided to sacrifice dakky to make ZB look town? Am I reading you right? If dakky is being sacrificed, why the need "to distance himself"...he'll be lynched, presumably. And, why give up a scum buddy if you can more easily jump on the Rage train and get rid of him, assuming you are town. And, how much more difficult would it then be, with presumably only one scum left, for scum to win. They would have to hope that a combination of two night kills and one more lynch occurs to get to a scum victory. I don't buy the "sacrifice my scum-buddy" ploy you are suggesting here. Maybe I am misunderstanding you???

To all: Pardon my bad memory, but I think N2 there was no nightkill and Rage was effervescent about it the next day. Did we ever determine why there was no nightkill? Other than Pika the Watcher, the only other non-vanilla town role I remember was jfm (I think) hiding behind people. Was he the one who caused the missed night kill?

[dakky21]

jfm said he hided behind Ragian N2. But everyone ran over that fact. And jfm said Ragi is scum multiple times and everyone ran over that as well. Everyone was/is listening to Rage and "trusting" what he says.

[Skoffin]

Going to need everyone to be far more active then they currently are, otherwise I will impose a 48 hour deadline.

[dakky21]

No Skoff, I impose a 48 hour deadline till my self ignition.

[ZaBeast]

To people voting for dakky21:

If dakky21 flips scum, who else is scum?

— If the answer is Tobikera: Justify not voting for either of these players day one.
— If the answer is me: Explain my actions for the first half of the game.
— If the answer is somebody else: Why?

I would have to go with tobi; ragian and strike went at dakky pretty hard and I don't expect them to be his teammate (the opposite is also true, if strike or ragian flip scum then I'll have to assume dakky isn't), and I believe you're town. Tobi and dakky also had little interaction with each other from what I remember, which is often seen in scum teams. I wasn't there D1 but I believe I would have voted dakky for the timing of his claim. But your question isn't really fair, dakky acted more and more scummy as the game progressed.

@tobi
No kill during N2. Since no one claimed a protective role, we have to assume jfm has been targetted then.
I always am annoyed when people claim they didn't vote to lynch town as an argument at a point where no scum have died yet. As far as I know you didn't vote to lynch scum either, as I believe pika is town. You (and the others) sticking to voting pika and ignoring the bandwagons that led to a lynch don't mean you had your vote at the right place, it just means we can't be sure on the alignement of the player(s) you claimed were scum.

@dakky
- Arguments that involve you being town are not valid as the only way to know your alignment for sure is for you to get killed. Let's say ragian gets brought to L-1 and says the same thing. Would that convince you?
- jfm hiding behind ragian N2 doesn't mean ragian is scum, it just means he hadn't been targeted that specific night. As I said at the beginning of the day, it would make sense for the scum team to kill the player they think jfm had been hiding against last night, but only saying ragian must be scum because jfm thought he was is both a lazy and poor argument.

[dakky21]

While I agree with you Beast, you are right, my arguments are not convincing, but can you give me a convincing argument that you or Ragian have against me? Tell me what I said and what made me scum, at least for the next games to know where I failed and looked scum while being town.

[dakky21]

And Beast, if I'm scum and we presume there are two scums left, who is scum with me? And why? I am sure you won't have answer to that. You want me dead because Ragian wants me dead and that's pretty much it.

[Ragian]

@Tobi, I can't do much about you not buying my arguments. Luckily, I don't decide for whom you must vote. Now, my point is also a point of timing. Distancing yourself from a scumbuddy needs to look casual, not planned, and you need to get on the wagon early. Beast voted dakky before you voted me. At that point, it seemed as if dakky was the only option, so a fellow scummate votes for you before the hammer. If dakky doesn't get lynched, the scum team have succeeded in distancing themselves from each other. If beast changes his vote to me, he's going to look very suspicious. It's quite clear that dakky and I don't see eye to eye in this game.

Sacrificing is different, but there are still two points: You get on the wagon before the hammer because if you end up having to hammer your scumbuddy there's always the risk that you'd lose any town credit it would've yielded because it's the only way to go or that you linger and people start asking questions.

@dakky, what's your point about jmf hiding behind me, thinking I'm scum? He thought Pika was scum, too. Moreover, he thought I was scum for leading a town lynch. That's a really poor argument.

[ZaBeast]

While I agree with you Beast, you are right, my arguments are not convincing, but can you give me a convincing argument that you or Ragian have against me? Tell me what I said and what made me scum, at least for the next games to know where I failed and looked scum while being town.

Easy
1- The timing of your claim (which should never have happened in the first place): happened right after the majority voiced that it was not worth lynching tobi over his. Looks like you tried to pull the same stunt because you knew you probably wouldn't be lynched over it.
2- Going for jfm after he claimed hider, because for some reason his claim was anti-town but tobi's wasn't (which I would say increase the odds of tobi being scum if you flip scum). As an aside, there is a big difference between jfm's claim and yours in the into the deep game, you gave up your role for no reason, while jfm thought he was helping expose scum (which I believe was ill-advised, but still more sensible than your claim in both games)
3- Accusing people seemingly at random, with nothing to back it up. I guess it makes sense for you to think or say that the people not voting you aren't scum because they would have hammered you, but you tunnel-visionned on Ragian before MYLO, and you haven't really explained why you picked him over strike for instance. You've been on both mislynches as well, is 3 the cut-off? And if the first two shouldn't be considered (because you claim they're not an argument for voting you either), why is strike less worthy of your vote?
4-

And Beast, if I'm scum and we presume there are two scums left, who is scum with me? And why? I am sure you won't have answer to that. You want me dead because Ragian wants me dead and that's pretty much it.

To people voting for dakky21:

If dakky21 flips scum, who else is scum?

— If the answer is Tobikera: Justify not voting for either of these players day one.
— If the answer is me: Explain my actions for the first half of the game.
— If the answer is somebody else: Why?

I would have to go with tobi; ragian and strike went at dakky pretty hard and I don't expect them to be his teammate (the opposite is also true, if strike or ragian flip scum then I'll have to assume dakky isn't), and I believe you're town. Tobi and dakky also had little interaction with each other from what I remember, which is often seen in scum teams. I wasn't there D1 but I believe I would have voted dakky for the timing of his claim. But your question isn't really fair, dakky acted more and more scummy as the game progressed.

Skimming the post you replied to, in which I addressed this very question. And generally skimming, for instance when you asked why pika claimed to be the only PR left.

[Tobikera]

@tobi
No kill during N2. Since no one claimed a protective role, we have to assume jfm has been targetted then.
I always am annoyed when people claim they didn't vote to lynch town as an argument at a point where no scum have died yet. As far as I know you didn't vote to lynch scum either, as I believe pika is town. You (and the others) sticking to voting pika and ignoring the bandwagons that led to a lynch don't mean you had your vote at the right place, it just means we can't be sure on the alignement of the player(s) you claimed were scum.

How do you know I didn't vote for scum? Just because I haven't voted for you?? No scum have been lynched, ergo I couldn't have voted for scum on a lynch. The facts are that I did not vote one time for anyone that was lynched as town, because I didn't think they were scum. And, your proposing that I am scum is preposterous. I'm starting to see Ragian's point here.

UNVOTE
VOTE ZaBeast

[dakky21]

Since we obviously have a stalemate situation here since Ragian, Strike and ZaBeast won't change their mind, I suggest that we either end the day without a lynch or Tobi/Pika votes me. I'd be also happy to hammer myself, but that would be game throwing.

[ZaBeast]

@tobi
No kill during N2. Since no one claimed a protective role, we have to assume jfm has been targetted then.
I always am annoyed when people claim they didn't vote to lynch town as an argument at a point where no scum have died yet. As far as I know you didn't vote to lynch scum either, as I believe pika is town. You (and the others) sticking to voting pika and ignoring the bandwagons that led to a lynch don't mean you had your vote at the right place, it just means we can't be sure on the alignement of the player(s) you claimed were scum.

How do you know I didn't vote for scum? Just because I haven't voted for you?? No scum have been lynched, ergo I couldn't have voted for scum on a lynch. The facts are that I did not vote one time for anyone that was lynched as town, because I didn't think they were scum. And, your proposing that I am scum is preposterous. I'm starting to see Ragian's point here.

UNVOTE
VOTE ZaBeast

The bottom line is I don't see sticking on a less popular lynch target (that I think is town) for what is effectively a 3-day OMGUS (and in the process, avoiding a lynching wagon) to be less scummy than voting people who I believe were scummy.
And ragian's argument was based on the fact I would be in the same scum team as dakky though. Do you think that's the case?

[strike wolf]

@tobi
No kill during N2. Since no one claimed a protective role, we have to assume jfm has been targetted then.
I always am annoyed when people claim they didn't vote to lynch town as an argument at a point where no scum have died yet. As far as I know you didn't vote to lynch scum either, as I believe pika is town. You (and the others) sticking to voting pika and ignoring the bandwagons that led to a lynch don't mean you had your vote at the right place, it just means we can't be sure on the alignement of the player(s) you claimed were scum.

How do you know I didn't vote for scum? Just because I haven't voted for you?? No scum have been lynched, ergo I couldn't have voted for scum on a lynch. The facts are that I did not vote one time for anyone that was lynched as town, because I didn't think they were scum. And, your proposing that I am scum is preposterous. I'm starting to see Ragian's point here.

UNVOTE
VOTE ZaBeast

Ummm...that's not what he said. He said "For all I know you didn't vote to lynch scum either." He's not claiming to know. He's claiming that not voting on a town lynch isn't proof that you aren't scum when you can't prove that the people you have voted for are scum.

@Pika: That's not really a legitimate question. Feelings change or evolve as the game move on and you know it. Just because I didn't find claiming VT day 1 a lynchable offense does not mean that Tobi might not become more suspicious to me as the game goes on. It's a false correlation.

I've already stated that I think Tobi is more likely than others to be Dakky's scum partner and between misinterpreting ZaBeast's post above (A tactic somewhat similar to his behavior in Into the Deep) and kinda flopping around with votes that aren't really progressing the day, he's only moved up my list since I said that.

[dakky21]

If there is only one scum and this day ends without a lynch, who wants to bet I won't be nightkilled but instead lynched tomorrow? It's a setup from scum from beginning. I may be the scummiest player amongst town, but that's the reason why I still didn't die at night... They know they can lynch me when the time comes.

Then again, if there are two scums and the day ends without a lynch, tomorrow it will be 3v2 and therefore my lynch inevitable with 3 of the players already on me. So if no lynch happens, I guess you're going down Pika or Tobi, but if no one of you two goes down then one of you is scum. Just saying.

[dakky21]

Can we get a deadline because this isn't going anywhere.